Reconstructionism

[thebarguest]

>>>Well, you can get more 'prog' than VdGG - in that VdGG doesn't 
>>>carry the same Prog genes as, say, Yes or ELP. It's not really 
>>>fantasy/whimsical/neo-classical based. Serious stuff, and on the 
>>>outer limits of prog (see also Can/Neu-style Krautrock)
>>>......whimsical  Tolkienesque lyrics delivered in 
>>>......a plummy English voice;

Shurely shome mishtake ! VdGG were as prog as they got. Just look
at the song titles from their 'Pawn Hearts' album :

1. Lemmings (including cog)
2. Man-erg
3. A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers (parts a to j) (23 MINUTES)

ie Jon Anderson 'eat your heart (of the sunrise) out' !!
   Very Tolkienesque and sung quite 'poshly'

>>>And remember too that Lydon namechecks Hamill's solo  
>>>album 'Nadir's Big 
>>>>Chance', NOT VdGG on the Capital Radio Show. A very  different 
>>>>animal.

"Ironically, while new wave's Year Zero ethos and its rejection of 
musicianship, artistry and complexity might have seen Van der Graaf 
Generator first up against the wall in 1976, they .. struck a chord 
with figures like Mark E. Smith, Howard Devoto and John Lydon." (from 
Trouserpress.com). Just do a google on Lydon + "Van der Graaf" and 
you'll see other references to Rotten et al's love of the band.

>>>No, it (Glam) was the mainstream commercial chart music. Prog was 
>>>the outsider/non-chart stuff in the early 70s

Prog was an album-only art form and Yes, Tull etc. achieved huge
album chart success in the UK and USA (top 5 albums).
Glam (inc Bowie, Bolan, Mott etc) was a dangerous gatecrasher into
charts dominated by Radio 2 slush-pop like 'Tie a Yellow Ribbon',
Osmonds, New Seekers. Glam was bisexuality/gayness, drugs, booze.

Punk in 77 was commercially successful - the Sex Pistols and the
Stranglers had several top 5 singles and albums.

die ende


--- In peel@yahoogroups.com, markbursa@... wrote:
>
>  
> 
> 
> >>Wow, a response !! Thanks !
> 
> Lots of the old "prog" bands  had some of their biggest successes
> during and after 1977 eg Yes, Tull,  Genesis, ELP, Barclay James H.
> Pink Floyd etc.<<
>  
> Genesis  became a pop band. Pink Floyd managed to bring a certain 
amount of 
> the  Zeitgeist into the excess with The Wall. It's certainly not 
about elves 
> and  pixies, is it. Yes had success through Trev Horn's AOR 
makeover. Pimp my 
> Prog!  Wouldn't say Tull or BJH had any marked increas in success 
post-punk. 
> More of  a steady slide into the margins. ELP were comprehensively 
killed off by 
> punk.  And rightly so!!!
>  
>  
>  
> >> But, yeah, punk influenced those bands to trim  their
> excesses and stop those awful 20 min drum solos !!  <<
>  
>  
> Very few  of the proggers owned up to any punk influence. Most of 
them were  
> scared/confused by it. Almost all of them hated the non-
musicianship elements. 
>  Result!
>  
> Very few proggers actually seemed to understand (post) punk at 
all.  Robert 
> Fripp formed League of Gentlemen with Barry Andrews and Sara Lee. 
Bill  Nelson 
> retooled his sound. Most others either chugged on to a dwindling  
audience Iin 
> the UK - less so in Europe) or gave up. 
>  
>  
>  
> >>So maybe they
> were not prog any more ......... but they were  still called prog by
> the media.<<
> 
> 
>  
> Careful with the terminology here. "Prog" (Capital P)  - as opposed 
to 
> progressive rock (small p) is now defined by certain elements  : 
very flash 
> musicianship, especially keyboards; insane time sequences like  
25:12; classical/jazz 
> flourishes; symphonic pretensions; whimsical  Tolkienesque lyrics 
delivered in 
> a plummy English voice; theatrical nonsense  on stage; complete 
absence of 
> any black influence, etc.
>  
> These were all Very Bad Things post-77, and it's these Prog 
elements that  
> were wiped out.
>  
> Not all the bands that were lumped in to the Prog movement 
conformed to  
> these stereotypes; certainly time has been kind to Pink Floyd in 
that respect  - 
> serious lyrical content; non-virtuosos in the band; blues 
influence; much  more 
> direct songwriting; songs built on texture/slabs of sound, not  
baroque 
> filigree etc. Van Der Graaf Generator likewise, to a lesser  
extent. With added 
> angst.
>  
> Remember too that punk reset the counter but it don't  take long 
for 
> post-punk to start progressing (small P) - Wire, Magazine,  PiL's 
Metal Box etc...
> 
> 
> >>You've got to remember, at the height of prog, glam  rock/pop 
(like
> Slade) was the 'punk' of the day.<<
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was the mainstream commercial chart music. Prog  was the 
> outsider/non-chart stuff in the early 70s. But there wasn't 
a "punk"  of the early '70s. 
> The most "dangerous" stuff was probably the heavy rock of  Black 
Sabbath, or 
> acid/stoner stuff like Hawkwind.
>  
> It is true that the 11-yr old Slade/T Rex/Bowie fans  became the 16-
yr-old 
> Pistols/Clash fans. I speak from a position of authority  on that 
one ;-)
> 
> 
> >>Incidentally, you can't get more 'prog' than Van der  Graaf 
Generator
> who were loved by Rotten, Mark E. Smith and no doubt other  punks.<<
>  
> 
> 
> Well, you can get more 'prog' than VdGG - in that VdGG  doesn't 
carry the 
> same Prog genes as, say, Yes or ELP. It's not  really 
> fantasy/whimsical/neo-classical based. Serious stuff, and on the  
outer limits of prog (see also 
> Can/Neu-style Krautrock)
>  
> And remember too that Lydon namechecks Hamill's solo  
album 'Nadir's Big 
> Chance', NOT VdGG on the Capital Radio Show. A very  different 
animal.
>  
> What really changed was the other stuff that Lydon,  MES and others 
were 
> listening to (Lydon and MES had very similar tastes, by  all 
accounts).
>  
> Velvets, Stooges, Dub, Beefheart, Krautrock, P-Funk,  Disco etc 
became the 
> core influences on post-punk. Not  classical/jazz/blues/folk.
>  
>  
> Mark
>