Peelenium

[Martin Wheatley]

>Purely in terms of the musical content haven't the tracks played so far
>been incredibly tame? I seriously doubt that these music hall recordings
>represent the musical "cutting edge" of the time, 

Tame to 1999 ears but not to 1905 ears to whom much of it was shocking


>I'm not suggesting the records in the Peelennium so far don't "interest
>Peel musically", far from it, but the lack of variety in form and style
>makes me think that actually there's not a great range of stuff

He has chosen to have music hall records pre WW1 because that is what 
he wants to hear.  It is an artistic choice not the abscence of alternatives  



>> And may will surprise you to know that Music Hall was not mainstream -
it was
>> working class at the time when most music was middle class - the punk of
its
>> day.

>Or the Ocean Colour Scene? The Shed 7?

Definitely not

>Just as a matter of curiosity, does anyone think of punk as 'working
>class music'? In which case what exactly is the 'working class music' of
>today because I'm not entirely certain that music can be shown to adhere
>to socio-economic definitions in any meaningful way. Of course, I don't 
>pretend to be any kind of authority and I do realise that there are 
>subjective opinions to be had.

This is absolutely correct for the period from about 1960 onwards
But there have been major social changes
Punk is not working class music because in the 1980s class distinction is
meaningless 
but it is not meaningless in the 1950s and it was everything in the 1900s
Class structures then were rigid.  If you were born working class you died
working 
class and there were very few opportunities to improve yourself.  Most working
class people even as recently as the start of WW11 did the same job in the
same 
place for the same employer all their life.  In the early 1900s most
working class
people would not have had gramophones (and some cases not electricity!).  
Read a book or two about the pre-WW1 period and you will see that this is so.
The Music Hall records are the middle classes flirting with dangerous
antisocial music.  
As a result many major Music Hall artists are not properly represented on
record and
in some instances only in much-cleaned up form
Music like everything else had a social divide in the 1900s but this has
died in 
recent years


> There was the same width of music available in the 20s, 30s and 40s as there
> is now.

Onviously we will have to disagree on that. 

>I look forward to hearing the 1930s gramophone record equivalents of
>industrial techno and random noise. 

You aren't likely to because  the equivalent movement was classical and 
earlier and Peel is unlikely to play it.  Schonberg, Berg and the atonal 
12 tone people would be the equivalent of industrial music and produced much
the same audience reaction.  If you ever get the chance read the reviews of
Stravinsky's 'Rite Of Spring' where the audience walked out of the premier.
To show my point about 1999 ears this now considered a standard piece in 
the classical repertoire.  Thing's change and so do the things that upset 
people.  Its less than 40 years since the Beatles caused a national
sensation by 
having hair that reached to the collar of their shirts - enough to give my
parents
a heart attack - it was talked about in Parliament!


>> Since the
>> researcher on the Peel show is Stig's generation

>You almost seem to imply here that you define people's worth by
>generation

I was simply pointing out rather clumsily that a pop music researcher is
unlikely
to be an expert on early 1900s music bearing in mind that the BBC tend to
employ people like Jo Whiley to do the job!


>> I'd guess there is an expert
>> in the library who has prepared them for him. Later on Peel will no doubt
>> select the tracks himself

>Do you really mean to suggest you think Peelie has had no say in the
>choice of records for the Peelennium up to this point? Learning that I
>was in fact listening to a programme that would let "an expert" choose
>the records being played is not the kind of thing I would expect from
>Peel's programme.

If you were listening to Thursday night's show you would have heard him say
that he was hearing some of the tracks played so far for the first time when
he played them on the show
Peel for all his great knowledge cannot know about everything and at this
stage
he doesn't know enough to make the choices without doing research that he
doesn't 
have time to do  (he still has that ever-growing mountain of new stuff to
listen to!)
The Gramophone library would have connections to all sorts of experts so I
think it very probably all he has done is to ask them to give him minidisks
of 4 tracks of Music 
Hall music for every  year up to a certain point.  Later when it gets areas
he knows 
about he will make the choices - which is pretty much what he said on Thursday


>Not for the first time I find myself asking you: does this actually 
>mean anything or is it simply evidence of a petty and pompous little 
>mind? ;)

Offensive, uncalled for and inappropriate to this group

>If my words have any definable intention I would suggest that it 
>is to explore and question rather to than project and impose any 
>supposedly final or expert meaning onto anything as arbitrary as 
>culture.

And just how does that square up with dismissing most pre 1950s 
music as you have done.  Exploring and questioning rather than
just making assumptions that anything you don't know can't be any good
and doesn't exist is all I've been asking you to do

I wrote 

> The true mark of the scholar.  Comparing something you know
> with something you know bugger all about.  You'll go far!
> There is a career in journalism awaiting you :-)
>
It's IRONY Stig - note the smiley at the end .  You have been on Fallnet and
should understand that. Whereas the pile of personal insults you have
directed at me
is just gratuitously offensive

Despite Stig's obvious desire to I have no intention of taking part 
in a flame war and I won't post further 


martinw